Others who have tried to deal with immanent form in the Phaedo are: Tarrant, D., The Hippias Major (Cambridge, 1928), pp. page 205 note 1 102d7–e3, 103d5–8, d 10–12, 104b 8–C3, c7–9, e7–105a5, a6–b3, 105d 10 ff., 106 a 5–6, b3–4, At 106 a 3–6 Plato writes that if were imperishable, The point of this is not that snow would ‘stay behind’ if it were not imperishable. View all Google Scholar citations 11 February 2009. page 221 note 1 10538. Three oxen would contain as an attribute the particularization of the form of three. page 222 note 1 There would in fact be this difference between the two examples. Eel. Verdenius, p. 235, wrongly interprets: as well as ‘other things, such as, for example, five, which as being “half” is the opposite of ‘double”, ‘not of “even”’.Google Scholar. Whatever is true of fire will fairly obviously be intended to be true of snow. Loading... Unsubscribe from dtouey? "metricsAbstractViews": false, page 200 note 2 is repeated at 10362–5, e6, 104a2, a6, b1, b4, b8, d3, and in the case of soul 105d 1, d3, d 10. The idea is derived from Cornford and probably from Ross, as cited on p. 205 n. 1 above. page 204 note 1 This is the interpretation of earlier writers and of Burnet, notes on 102d9 and ea; Taylor, A. E., Plato, the Man and his Work3, pp. page 224 note 3 p. 158 n. 2, quoting Stob, . On the other hand the form of three could not have applied to it the rest of the metaphor. To this extent alive and dead are as exclusive as odd and even.   Interpretations of this argument and especially of the last section have differed considerably. This obscures the point that the initial idea, largeness, is not the idea precisely of what Shorey calls the particular, namely Simmias. page 217 note 2 Hackforth's interpretations of this passage, if carried to their conclusion, lead to hopeless confusion. page 207 note 1 See Hackforth, , p. 165 n. 1, and Scarrow.Google Scholar. I 199 from the course of the argument,' that the opposite character in each example is the particularization of an opposite form.z Socrates begins the argument by distinguishing the particular character of largeness from the subject in which the character inheres, 102 a Io-d 4:3 This was agreed. iv Abstract Myth and Argument in Plato’s Phaedo Brooke McLane-Higginson, Ph.D. University of Pittsburgh, 2019 This dissertation argues for reading the myth at the end of Plato’s Phaedo as part of the overall argumentative structure of the dialogue. page 219 note 1 We deal with fire not snow because fire is mentioned more often. I. 219 ff. Most likely do simply replace If so, they are probably exceptional, in that by their very meaning it is natural to think, at least casually, of equality and likeness as pairs of equal and like things, even though strictly it is a form that is being spoken of and a form should be a unity. Phaedo relates the dialogue from that day to Echecrates, a Pythagorean philosopher. (A half, for example, is essentially smaller than a whole, but at the same time it is larger than something else, a quarter; it is not only small.) In this way the opposite form of life exhibits a new degree of exclusiveness. II - Volume 18 Issue 1 - D. O'Brien. A body can be alive at one time and later dead. Perhaps, however, in the present argument Plato thinks of animal bodies as alive and of the soul as essentially alive. ‘Particular’ used as a noun suggests something substantial and so, as we shall see, in the case of an attribute encourages a false notion of immanent form. 204–6Google Scholar (criticized by Ross, , P. page 206 note 2 alone, without is applied to opposite forms at 104 b 7–8 and 105a2. He asserts that the soul can only gain wisdom once the physical body is dead. pp. from 102d6, from of hot or cold, 103e3, from of odd and even, 104c7, from 106d6. In the Phaedo, Plato provides several arguments in an attempt to prove the immorality of the soul. 212 n. 2 and 217 n. 2. It is perhaps not too cavilling to question Hack-forth's distinction between soul as form and soul as substance, pp. That no doubt is one reason why Plato chooses the example which he does. Euthyphro (/ ˈ juː θ ɪ f r oʊ /; Ancient Greek: Εὐθύφρων, romanized: Euthyphrōn; c. 399–395 BC), by Plato, is a Socratic dialogue whose events occur in the weeks before the trial of Socrates (399 BC), between Socrates and Euthyphro. Cf. page 203 note 2 ‘Withdraw’ is used to cover, in the present passage, and and later in the argument 106a4, and or 106a10 and e7. This therefore is the least exclusive of Plato's examples. Perhaps weshould prefer the commoner transitional sense, ‘of course'; so Hackforth. "peerReview": true, Query parameters: { Oxford Scholarship Online requires a subscription or purchase to access the full text of books within the service. page 199 note 3 Burnet's text has been used, except where otherwise stated. Bekker, I., Platonis … scripta graece omnia, etc., Phaedo, vol. Perhaps this is too much meaning to give to Verdenius may be right, that is a gloss. Click above to read Plato´s “Phaedo”.- On the question of intermediates in the Phaedo see Ross, , P. 4, vol. Cornford in his article on this passage, C.Q. 216–17 above. For snow is never hot. } Phaedo - Summary - The Argument From Form of Life. There is nothing that is in Plato's sense essentially large or essentially small, only large or only small. For we might perhaps argue that sensible fire ‘possesses’ wood and impresses its ‘character’ upon it. page 212 note 2 103e3, discussed above, p. 203. A cause of confusion has perhaps been the mistaken application to the metaphor of Aristotle's criticism of the Phaedo at De gen. et corr., 335b 14–15.Google Scholar, page 204 note 2 The result is particularly clear in two remarks by Taylor and by Bluck. (c) Copyright Oxford University Press, 2020. Cornford, Plato's Cosmology, pp. 188–91Google Scholar. It might be thought therefore that, when Plato introduces fire, which can be only hot, and snow, which can be only cold, he is concerned to draw a distinction between absolute and relative attribution. Bekker, in making out that it is specific numbers like ten and five, not die opposites double and half, which constitute the exception to Plato's earlier statement of his thesis. page 213 note 2 Fr. I will then walk through the argument, voiced by Plato’s main character Socrates. It can never ‘stay behind’ at the approach of the opposite. Simmias can cease to be compared with Socrates—rather than Simmias' actually growing smaller or Socrates' actually growing larger—and in that case the comparative ‘largeness’ in Simmias ‘perishes’. 135b17–26, 147a20–31, De soph. Full text views reflects PDF downloads, PDFs sent to Google Drive, Dropbox and Kindle and HTML full text views. For Plato forms are substances, if we are using that word in the Aristotelian sense, see, e.g., Met. for this article. page 200 note 1 Hackforth, remarks, p. 155, as others have done, that large and small are not qualities but relations. Soul can be only alive, in the way in which three can be only odd and two can be only even. Rep. 610b1–2. 19 Wachsmuth, ; and p. 161.Google Scholar. Ls: Socrates is alive “___(…” is the conditional sign; it’s read as “If ___, then …”, or “If p, then q”. A third remarks that the conclusion follows ‘if we do not look too closely’. In the final passage of the Phaedo, Plato provides his final proof, although it may be his last attempt to give his reasoning, it … There fore we have here in effect nothing more than the normal twofold division of form and particularization: largenesss and the largeness in Simmias. B., The Theory of Motion in Plato's Later Dialogues, p. 8.Google Scholar, page 198 note 4 Crombie, I. M., An examination of Plato's doctrines, ii. Contrast Bluck, , op. Interpretations of this argument and especially of the last section have differed considerably. Hackforth, R., Plato's Phaedo, etc., Cambridge, 1955Google Scholar. This qualification may apply in two ways. Strata's criticism is repeated with approval by Hackforth, , p. 163Google Scholar, and by some earlier critics. The final argument based on Forms is the only one Plato deems truly definitive, refuting the doubts of Simmias and Cebes (See The Objections by Simmias and Cebes & Replies to Simmias and Cebes). In Phaedo four arguments describe how the soul can be immortal with the fourth argument presenting what most deem the most convincing and the most sound. 4. pp. But Frege's highly speculative considerations need not have occurred to Plato at this point. The Phaedo's final argument ends at 106e-107a with the conclusion ‘a soul is something immortal and indestructible, and our souls really will exist in Hades’. i, p. 22Google Scholar. But life in soul excludes, as we shall see, the possibility of change. date: 05 December 2020. In fact Plato's distinction in the Parmenides between the form of likeness and ‘the likeness which we have’ is precisely the same as the distinction in the Phaedo between the form of large and ‘the large in us’. Arguments For and Against in Plato's Phaedo - Philosophy Core Concepts - Duration: 20:21. The qualification, which Hackforth leaves untranslated, looks forward to and the addition of, page 229 note 2 This view follows essentially from Strata's criticism, see p. 213 above. 12 Why no Platonistic Ideas of Artefacts? A summary of Part X (Section11) in Plato's Phaedo. But very possibly Plato is thinking simply of comparison. Definitions: Ss: Socrates (s) has a soul. If you should have access and can't see this content please, Die Weltanschauung Platos dargestellt im Anschlusse an den Dialog Phädon. For more recent discussion references are given by Verdenius, p. 210. We use cookies to distinguish you from other users and to provide you with a better experience on our websites. page 221 note 2 105 a 8. Numbered objects can be odd and even at different times, in the same way as water can be hotter and colder at different times. For ‘the duplication of the idea’, i.e. Ivi–lviiGoogle Scholar; Demos, R., ‘Note on Plato's Theory of Ideas’, Philosophy and Phenomenological Research viii (1947–1948), 456–60Google Scholar; Bluck, , pp. Judgements on its value have usually been adverse. cit., p. 117: the addition of ‘can hardly be because Plato wanted to make it plain that he had referred to the Form’.Google Scholar. page 204 note 4 It has seemed slightly simpler in explaining this third image to speak of physical change, Simmias or Socrates becoming actually larger or smaller. If ten were the subject of the sentence, at 105 a 8 would have to refer to which with a singular neuter noun, intervening would be very awkward. page 201 note 2 Specific substances clearly described as forms are the shuttle in the Cratylus 389, table and bed in the ‘appendix’ to the Republic 595–8Google Scholar, and, reasonably clearly, fire in the Timaeus 51b–52a, on which cf. Plato, he notes, is absent because he’s “ill.” Phaedo and his friends have gotten used to visiting Socrates, but on this particular morning they’re informed that he’ll be executed. The alternative notion, of three as the attribute of a group of numbered objects, is one that cannot in principle be easily defended. "metrics": true, THE LAST ARGUMENT OF PLATO'S PHAEDO. The first is known as the Argument from Opposites A thing can be both large and small: at the same time larger than one thing and smaller than another, and at different times larger and smaller than the same thing. page 207 note 3 Jackson ap. If you think you should have access to this title, please contact your librarian. The final page, we shall argue, will have seemed to Plato in some ways less important, and even something of an embarrassment. The Phaedo's final argument ends at 106e-107a with the conclusion ‘a soul is something immortal and indestructible, and our souls really will exist in Hades’. Essentially the same criticism is echoed by Keyt, , p. 169, when he complains that laughter, as well as soul, ‘always comes to whatever it occupies bearing life’. page 205 note 2 This follows Heindorf ap. page 227 note 1 The argument concludes with 107a1. Schmidt, H., Kritischer Commentar zu Plato's Phaedon, 2 Hälfte, Halle, 1850–1852Google Scholar. If meant three as an attribute of numbered objects, then three oxen would be like large Simmias. An Analytic Outline of Plato's Phaedo Brian B. Clayton THE FIRST THREE IMMORTALITY ARGUMENTS IN THE "PHAEDO" 1. page 226 note 3 There is the same implication at Rep. 611a4–6. page 218 note 2 Verdenius's comparisons are accepted in effect by Rise, , op. Phaedo is one of the dialogues that were created by plato, the phaedo tried to depict the death of Socrates who was a great philosopher. Once or twice the translation is deliberately literal at the expense of fluency. The Phaedo gives us four different arguments for the immortality of the soul: The Argument from Opposites, the Theory of Recollection, the Argument from Affinity, and the final argument, given as a response to Cebes' objection. Seem too strained by Hackforth,, p. 169 n. 1.Google Scholar explain some of 's... Immorality of the Phaedo of Plato, etc., Cambridge, 1955Google Scholar,. 12, 104c3 page 226 note 3 Burnet 's text has been used, except where otherwise.. Even fractions excludes wholeness by Rise,, p. 163Google Scholar, which is not only... 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